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Jondreau Transcript

Baraga County Trial

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OPENING STATEMENT OF MR. SCHROCK

• MR. SCHROCK; If the Court please, this matter, basically, gets down to the point that has been raised previously and alluded to here.
• The Defendant is a member of the L'Anse Band Indians; there was an Indian treaty executed with the President of the United States in 1854, granting them certain fishing privileges, and setting forth the areas of their reservation, and they are thereby entitled, subject to the Executive Order of the President of the United States removing these rights that they had received under the treaty, and to the best of our knowledge and recollection these rights have not been superseded by Executive Order. On the basis of this treaty, the Defendant was pursuing his rights.
• I will ask Mr. Jondreau to take the stand, please.
• WILLIAM JONDREAU
• being first duly sworn, was examined and testified on his oath as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SCHROCK:

• Q- Will you state your name, please?
• A- William Jondreau.
• Q- And where do you reside, Mr. Jondreau?
• A- At the Mission; Assinins. Baraga is my address.
• Q- And will you state to the Court, please, what your race is?
• A- I'm a Chippewa Indian.
• Q- And you're & member of what band?
• A- The L'Anse Band of Indians, Chippewa Indians.
• Q- Do you hold any position in this band with respect to any office, Mr. Jondreau?
• A- Not right now. I'm just a council member.
• Q- Mr. Jondreau, are you acquainted with any of the rights that were granted to Your band by any treaty?
• A- Our treaty, September 30, 1854, Article XI, states that the Chippewa Indians of Lake Superior is allowed to hunt and fish on their reservation
• Q- Does this treaty, also, set forth the areas setting out the reservation?
• A- Just the reservation.
• Q- It sets out the areas, the sections and townships?
• A- Yes, it does.

(Defendant's Exhibit 1 marked for identification)

• Q- (By Mr. SCHROCK) Mr. Jondreau, I'll show you an instrument marked Defendant's Exhibit 1, and ask you if you've ever seen that before?
• A- No, I haven't
• Q- Can you --- do you have a little trouble reading?
• A- I've -- it's hard to see.
• Q- O.K. Did you provide this for me?
• A- I don't know where Mr. Wisti got that from; from some -- one of our tribe, anyway;
• Q- But this is a copy of the treaty that --to which you referred; September 30, 1854?
• A- yes sir; that's the one.
• Q- This is the one?
• A- Yes, sir.
• Q- Which states that all annuity payments to the Chippewas of Lake Superior shall hereafter be made at L'Anse, LaPointe, Grand Portage and on the St. Louis River, and the Indians shall not be required to remove from the homes hereby Set apart for them, and such as them as reside in the territory hereby ceded shall have the right to hunt and fish therein until otherwise ordered by the President.
• A That's right.

MR. SCHROCK: We offer this in evidence.

Mr. Mather: No objections.

The COURT: It may be received.

(Defendant's Exhibit 1 received in evidence)

• Q- (By Mr. Schrock) How long have you lived in L'Anse, Mr. Jondreau?
• A- All my life -- in Baraga.
• Q- How long have you fished, Mr. Jondreau?
• A- This last time here, about -- I'd say about six years I've been fishing. I fished before that; ever since I could row a boat, I was fishing.
• Q- For your own purposes? For your own purposes and commercially?
• A- Commercial fishing, yes.
• Q- Not by heart, but I have the map.
• Q- You have a map?
• A- Yes.
• Q- But you know, pretty generally, what areas are covered?
• A- I do.
• Q- And on June 1, 1965, where you placed your nets, where were they located?
• A- Inside the reservation -- boundaries of the reservation.
• Q- Inside the exterior boundaries of the reservation?
• A- Inside the reservation.
• Q- And you had taken these -- you had confined all your fishing to this area?
• A- That's right.
• Q- At all times?
• A- All times.
• Q- On the basis of the provisions of this treaty?
• A- That's right.

Mr. SCHROCK: I have no further questions.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. MATHER:

• Q- Mr. Jondreau, under the provisions of this treaty, then, as you understand it, you actually would have -- you do not have any obligation, any legal obligation, to buy a commercial fishing license, do you?
• A- well, to sell my fish, I need a commercial fishing license.
• Q - To do what?
• A- To sell fish; to sell my fish.
• Q- To sell your fish, you need a license?
• A- Yes.
• Q - You don't consider that you need a license to take fish?
• A - Not for my own purpose, no.
• Q - I see. Then, your only purpose in having a commercial fishing license is in order-to sell them?
• A- To sell; that's right.
• Q - Then, as you understand the commercial fishing license, the word "commercial" refers to the sale and not the taking, then? You consider that you are thereby licensed to put these fish into commerce; is that correct?
• A - That's what it's supposed to be.
• Q- And you feel the State of Michigan, then, as you understand the treaty which has been discussed, has no right to stop you from taking the fish under the provisions of the treaty, but has a right to stop you from disposing of the fish; is that what you think -- unless you buy a license?
• A- Would you repeat that? I didn't --
• Q- Well, I didn't mean to be confusing, but under the terms of the treaty, as you understand it, you have the right to take the fish out of the lake in any manner that you want to?
• A- That's right.
• Q- And the reason you have that right is because, as you see it, the treaty gives you that right?
• A- That's right.
• Q- And you own the fish? You own the fish, then, when you take them out of the lake?
• A- That's right.
• Q- But you consider that the State of Michigan, even though you took them under the treaty and on a reservation, the State of Michigan can, then, come in and say that you can't sell them, even though you're on the reservation when you took them, even though they're your fish, you consider that the State of Michigan has the right to prohibit you from selling them unless you have a fishing license? Is that the way you understand the law; a commercial fishing license?

Mr. SCHROCK: I think he's confusing the witness.

On the one hand, he's saying -- the witness testified that he considered he had to have a commercial license to sell these fish; now, counsel is asking him -- and I think he's got him confused -- so far as selling these fish on the reservation or selling them off the reservation.

MR. MATHER: Your Honor, I referred to taking them on reservation lands.

THE COURT: Would you rephrase your --

MR, SCHROCK:

You, also, mentioned, counsel, that -- in your question -- so far as asking the Defendant if he admitted that he had to have a commercial license to sell he fish on the reservation.

MR. MATHER: Then, I would agree I did confuse him unintentionally,

THE COURT: Rephrase the question, counsel.

• Q- (By Mr. Mather) Witness, do I understand that you have a right to take the fish on reservation land under the terms of the treaty --
• A- I do.
• Q- -- for any purpose?
• A- I do. According to our treaty.
• Q- According to the way you understand the treaty. And that State of Michigan, as you understand it, has no right-to stop you from doing that?
• A- No, they don't.
• Q- Well, do I understand that you consider that the State of Michigan can stop you from selling those same fish which you've taken under the treaty? Can they -- as you understand the treaty -- do they have the right to stop you from selling?
• A- If I didn't have no license.
• Q- Yes.
• A- You can't sell fish if you don't have no license.
• Q- So, they have -- you consider that they have that authority?
• A- Yes.
• Q- Do you consider that authority even applies to a sale which takes place on the reservation?
• A- Well, they -- I don't know. They got -- they got their ruling. They make their laws, and we can't follow them.
• Q- Oh. Well -- yes, that's true; they've made some laws, and they've made this particular one, but at least you treat the law as though it's illegal to sell the fish whether the sale takes place on Indian reservation land or off reservation land without a license; you consider that the State of Michigan can prohibit a sale of fish taken by you whether you -- that is, if you don't have a license -- whether you make that sale on reservation land or off reservation land?
• A- Well, you've got to have commercial fishing --
• Q- I see.
• A- -- a commercial license if you want to sell your fish.
• Q- But you don't --
• A- But if I kept it for myself, I wouldn't -- I shouldn't need no license, according to our treaty.
• Q- I see.
• A- That's why I bought the license; so I could sell my fish.
• Q- So you could sell them, And you, thereby, acknowledge the State of Michigan's right to control the sale of them, but not to control the taking of them; is that correct? That you consider the State of Michigan does have the legal authority, despite the treaty, to control selling them, but not to control taking them out of the lake?
• A- Well, if I went out there in the lake without a commercial fishing license -- without a license -- he'll pick me up again for fishing without a license.
• Q- Yes.
• A- So, what are you going to do?
• Q- Yes; I realize that. I'm just trying to clarify to the Court your interpretation of this treaty. There's no question, is there, Mr. Jondreau, that on the date charged -- that's June 1 -- that you were licensed, as License No. 5, under the commercial fishing law?
• A- That's right.
• Q- And that you did take the trout which Mr. Beach referred to from Lake Superior; you did take it, did you not?
• A- Well, then, here's another thing: I wasn't out --
• Q- Would you answer that question, please, first? You did take the trout?
• A- I did. I took them to shore, yes.
• Q- On June 1?
• A- Yes.
• Q- And that you were -- your license applied to this boat -- the "Bob," which is your boat?
• A- That's right.
• Q- And you took them by net, did you not?
• A- They were in my net, yes.
• Q- Yes, Now, did you want to say something?
• A- Well, I wasn't fishing for lake trout. I had herring nets out there.
• Q- I see.
• A- And those trout accidentally got in there and, well, I wasn't going to throw the dead trout back in the lake, so I brought then in shore.
• Q- I see.
• A- And that's why I'm up here for that.
• Q- I realize that. The order which has been introduced, you know about that order, don’t you; the one that says that you have to return them into the lake whether they're dead or alive?
• A- Yes.
• Q- You actually don't approve of that, do you?
• A- Not when they're dead.
• Q- No. But you knew about the order; in fact, you got a copy of it?
• A- No, I don't think so.
• Q- You don't think you have a copy of it?

MR. MATHER: I believe that's all.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. SCHROCK:

• Q- Mr. Jondreau, do you have upon your nets a sign saying, "Herring"?
• A- Pardon?
• Q- Do you have on your nets a sign saying, "Herring"?
• A- No, I don't.
• Q- Fish can't tell one kind of net from another, can they?
• A- No.
• Q- Mr. Jondreau, what would happen to your fishing grounds if you threw dead fish back into it?
• A- Well, that would be polluting the water.
• Q- Would fish have a tendency to come back in there, then, so far as your experience is concerned?
• A- I don't think so.
• Q- t all times, you and other members of your tribe have relied on this treaty; is that correct?
• A- That's right.
• Q- There's no restriction, to the best of your recollection, in that treaty, with respect to how these fish are to be taken, is there?
• A- No, sir.
• Q - You've never been advised by anyone with respect to the revocation of any parts of this treaty, have you?
• A- No.
• Q- Your tribe or anyone else?
• A- No; just what I read myself.
• Q- And, so far as any changes or anything in it is concerned, your tribe has never been advised of any changes, have they?
• A- Not a. bit.
• Q- And at all times, with respect to your actions, you've been relying upon the treaty?
• A- That's right.
• Q- And whenever you've been stopped, you've advised the officer or anyone else with respect to --
• A- That's right,
• Q- -- that you were acting under this treaty?
• A- That's right.

MR. SCHROCK: I think that's all.

MR. MATHER: Nothing further, Your Honor.

MR. SCHROCK: You can step down, Mr. Jondreau.

(Witness excused)

THE COURT:
Counsel, is there any evidence to be introduced with reference to the fact that there has been no change in this treaty or is just the-word of Mr. Jondreau that you are relying on, counsel?

MR. SCHROCK:
I have no certified information at this time

THE COURT:
Very well. Mr. Schrock, is there anything that you wish to say to the Court before sentence is pronounced on your client?

MR SCHROCK:
Nothing other than what's already been said, Your Honor.

THE COURT:
Very well. Would you have Mr. Jondreau please step forward to the bench? Mr. Jondreau, it is the judgment and sentence of the Court that, having found you guilty, that you be fined the sum of $50 and costs in the amount of $25. The fine and costs are to be paid to the Clerk of the Court on or before the 5th day of April, 1967, and in default thereof you will be remanded to the custody of the Sheriff of Baraga County to serve a period of time not to exceed 10 days.
The Sheriff and the Prosecutor, in the event of the default, will carry out the Court's commitment.

Very well; Court will recess.